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Talk:Cra
Cra/Hybrid Hybrid - strengths of a hybrid build depend on which build one actually makes. If a hybrid build features a str/int/vit combination, the damage output will be marginally lower than pure builds and there will be greater pressure on getting good equipment. This build however provides versatility and survivability all round, and makes for a more enjoyable game in the levels where strength and intelligence builds have problems. - Harrow :Harrow: If you're going to push Cra/Hybrid as a worthy competitor, I suggest you start with the Cra/Intelligence/Strength article. Until you can demonstrate actual strengths compared to ALL other builds, I will be forced to continue to delete your editorializing. As you say above, at no point will the Hybrid be stronger than a pure build, only more flexible / versatile. And "enjoyable" is entirely subjective. --GrauGeist 18:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC) ::Graugeist: I think that before that time that I can sit down and type up a respectable guide, piecemeal additions can be tolerated. Moreover, I fail to see how it makes sense to delete posts adding new knowledge just because the new knowledge about builds does not make the class more powerful. In addition, the hybrid cra as such is a very problematic term. A hybrid cra can be a crit cra with a str or an int component, or a str/int build, or a str/int/vit build, or whatever else. And before the community produces enough knowledge about these separate hybrids to make them worthy of separate pages, I think it is obtuse to delete paragraphs that add legitimate bits of that new knowledge. That said, I agree that my paragraph above was too long and I agree with moderator's intervention into its length. I think the survivability and versatility portions are true strengths of hybrid cra builds, whichever one chooses, so I petition those be returned in the text (added by Harrow who is not quite familiar with making comments here yet :) ) - Harrow ::: Please don't take this personally. People look to the Wiki for useful useable content. Merely stating the obvious or telling them bits and pieces without context or detail serves very little purpose. Telling a Cra to spend points on Vitality is generally considered bad, so you need to give a very clear explanation of what you intend, how and why. I consider the current Cra/Intelligence/Strength to be very weak Build and poorly written, NOT up to the standards set by the Cra main page, nor any of the other Cra Build pages. While I agree about verstility and flexibility, but survivability is rather debatable. Telling people that they can make their Hybrid one of 8 or 12 different flavors is useless. Please keep in mind that the Build pages are very specific plans for people to follow. If you can document Cra/Vitality or redo Cra/Intelligence/Strength, that could be useful and helpful. I would suggest that you spend some time re-developing the Cra/Intelligence/Strength/1 page until you get it to a point that you would feel comfortable suggesting a specific approach that others can follow. If you can't be bothered to write a respectable guide for the Build that you're advancing, then I have to conclude the idea isn't yet ready for inclusion at this level. While you work on it as a running project, you should probably host the draft under Harrow/Cra/Hybrid and we can keep the link active on this Talk Page for others to look into, as a place to get suggestions and commentary. It will also help you become more familiar with how Wiki works. I look forward to your continued efforts on the Wiki. --GrauGeist 22:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC) Grau, you seem to fail to notice that the int and str builds covered in this wiki take the obvious path, and that the str build guide ends at level 60, while the only reason the int build goes to 90 is the explosive arrow. If you read the guide for a hybrid cra on imp village forum (which is really a crit cra guide), you will see near the final pages a contribution from a player at Jiva, who explains the importance of vitality for a cra beyond level 50. This entirely corresponds to my experience (which is strength cra turned str/crit cra). The reason for my contributions is that the Cra front page at the moment is based on on very narrow conceptions of the cra class that are quite weak in levels 40-60, and also later when compared to better thought-out hybrid cra builds. So before someone has a hefty amount of hours to spend on writing up a detailed guide, no new knowledge can be added to the main page? How can it be told to the readers of the Cra main page that the information there is quite narrow and almost certainly below ideal at levels post 50? - Harrow :Harrow, given that I actively maintain Cra and Cra/Strength, I think I'm well aware that they take the obvious path. The point of a Build page is to give useful guidance that others can follow. There is no problem with Cra/Strength stopping with Destructive Arrow, nor Cra/Intelligence stopping with Explosive Arrow. After that point, the builds diverge pretty widely, depending on personal perference. As for Imp Village, if their "Hybrid" is actually a Cra/Critical, then pushing it as the Wiki Cra/Intelligence/Strength doesn't make sense. The point of the main pages is to provide generally useful information that most people won't be steered wrong by. Cra is a pretty complex class, and things start get get very complicated around lv.50. For you to complain about the information presented without developing a solid alternative isn't the way to do things. If you want to help fix Cra/Intelligence/Strength into something that can be recommended on the main Cra page, then I'm glad to help you with it. But if you haven't gotten to lv.60/70 yourself and seen the impact of your recommendations, it's a bit premature to put them on the main page. --GrauGeist 18:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC) Class name diacritics To maintain a certain minimum level of editor sanity, we the English class names: Cra, Xelor and Feca. If anyone wants to put a notice at the top of the class pages about the French spelling, they're welcome to, but use the proper names in general writing. As always, this is open to debate, but considering there's not a single use of Crâ before today, I expect there's already consensus about this. - Dashiva 20:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC) :Given that this is the English Wikicities, the English names are appropriate. --GrauGeist 00:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC) Commentary I'm not sure the protocol on bias in articles, but it seems that the suggestion to add agility to a strength build is a biased one. I would change it, but the article would then reflect my bias. Perhaps a better approach would be to add some listings of hybrids. Opinions on this matter are welcome. - Teucer : The class pages are quite bad at the moment, suffering from lack of both structure and content. Here's an outline of what I'd like to see. (See below) - Dashiva :: I'm OK with the Skills/Spell table as-is. Builds is basically OK as well, but needs more on Agility / Hybrids, along a guidance sections on advantages / disadvantages. I don't know what the Good/Average Build sections would add. - GrauGeist ::: Those are example builds. - Dashiva 12:33, 7 Jan 2006 (UTC) :::: Oh. I think I would start Builds with a brief discussion of the various typical builds and their differences, then redirect for details. Example Builds should stay on the detail pages, or the main page gets too busy. - GrauGeist :: I added the Stats table, with "ALL" and "over NNNN", which I think is a bit clearer and easier to enter than using the "oo" (infinity) symbol. - GrauGeist ::: Using both "to 350" and "over 350" just makes it unclear, in my opinion. The 4:1 section clearly says 4:1 lasts until 350, so there should be no need to mention when 5:1 starts, only when it ends. I agree the infinity symbol isn't the perfect choice, I used it to conform with the "to x" form. Alternatives would be "Rest" or "Forever" or something, I just couldn't think of a good word. - Dashiva 18:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC) :::: How about "OVER"? - GrauGeist :: I redid the Skills table as 2 columns - GrauGeist ::: I realize it's much easier to edit by having the sequence go horizontally first, but it's really confusing to read when you're used to seeing it go vertically. Generally, multi-column tables should flow like several single-column ones. - Dashiva 11:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC) :::: OK, done. You're awfully particular! - GrauGeist ::::: Someone has to think about the users. :) - Dashiva 00:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC) ---- ---- General chat. Cra's Range is a natural hybrid, blah blah. Enemy = arrow'd. Put the infobox here too, I suppose. Stats Table of stat costs progressions, and maybe a column listing the number of skills using each element relevant to a given stat. No talk about "this stat is useful", leave that for builds section. : Done! - GrauGeist Skills Big skill table here. Kill the element column and make the description "Fire damage", etc instead. Make sure the descriptions are actually short and not two paragraphs like in the ingame descriptions. I'd like to see the table with two main columns like in the community site flash. It's way too tall as it is. : Done! - GrauGeist Dopples Info on cra dopples here. : Done! Builds Maybe something general about builds. Common knowledge like "don't learn summon arachnee, it sucks." It would also contain subsections discussing and comparing specific skills and strategies without giving complete builds. Good build It rocks. Pick skills and stats and use items that give blah blah, then at level x you do this. Average build Meh. Fire or Earth in early levels Pick this, or that. This is why. Etc. Huge Build This is a build with blah blah blah, see the full article at /Huge Build because it's too big and detailed. Sets This page advises to get the Young Adventurer set, what other sets are recommended for Cra at different levels? :Personally I would use Gobball Set at lvl 20, and just get the lining based on what type you are, or if you are rich get a 40/40. Later you will start using Prespic set, and beyond that custom comes into play. - MrMunchie Spam filter The link to Zanarkand's Cra guides (thebiglebowsky.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=classguides&action=display&thread=1150458423) seems to be filtered out by wikia and so was removed. --Kishou 03:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Comments (moved from the article page) Treerings can be used to boost 1 ap not sure what the stats are negative a lot of stuff though Could someone make a table of all the different bows with recommendations here, please? :-) :Perhaps people could start by saying what bow they're currently using and we could build it up from there. See also Bow. <> * hisda for agil cra great combo with bow skill and make sure you have one with -40 intel and get a + life pet because it'll suck your health away with the -100 vital with 8 ap cast with plauge arrow and do close to 200 damage a turn Build Moved I moved the Hybrid build becaue it doesn't fit into the second list of builds under developement, it's already finished. --Creao 18:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC) Bows or Skills Hey guys I've got a question concerning the attack with a bow or just with skills. What in your oppinion is the more powerfull attack. To choose a bow and earn the +40% damage bonus or to attack with Explosive Arrow with a greater damage range? I'm an Int build Cra. Most bows I have seen do not make the same damage like Explosive Arrow. Is the bonus that great that it still makes more damage then Explosive Arrow or should I relay on Explosive Arrow and equipt some +AP weapon for instance? 13:35, 13 June 2006 :I don't play cras, but this is a logic way of thinking it. If you don't use bows then got and use the AP bow and if contrary then don't use the AP bow. Your Explosive arrow is great, but it will not really save you all the times, there are monster with more than 500 HP and more than 3 MP so they will catch and hurt you. So explosive arrow is a way to weaken the monsters HP or kill the monster allies while the thought one gets in range of your bow, then you use your bow that will do more damage than you explosive, if its the way around, then you still need more level or a better bow. --Cizagna (Talk) 18:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC) According to the main page, "Generally, Cra who do not attack with Class Spells will attack with Bows, despite the inability to wear a Shield. This is due to the lack of damage penalty as opposed to when attacking with other weapons." In my experience most Cras who do not use class spells use daggers... Beet of Doom 08:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC) New water build? Could it be possible to make some sort of chance/water build with a Cra? :Yes, apparently Wis/Cha is quite nice.. There's a guide somewhere on Impsvillage ::I'm currently the only decent level chance cra. It is a possible build with a lot of potential, however it is VERY equipment dependent and costly. I would only recommend this build to the very patient. :Well, I made one guide: Cra/Chance --Koziej ::Some good ideas in your build, but am I correct in thinking you have not actually made a chance cra yourself? The non crit damage of slowdown arrow is VERY sad to say the least. It is 100% essential that a chance cra have 1/2 crits to be effective. Are you sitting down? Yes I am saying at levels 100+ 10ap and 1/2 crits are a MUST. This is all very possible but very expensive. :::Yes I did... I know that getting 10-11 AP is not a big problem (you have base 7, a lot of amulets give +1AP, many sets give it etc.), but not everyone reading my build had 100+ character, so I'm just saying it... anyway, that build is not that good now, because they changed AP rape... ::10ap is not a big problem your right, but 10ap and 1/2 crits on a 1/40 crit spell is, and that is what a chance cra needs to be successful(untill level 180 that is). The build isnt good because it isnt practical, however with alot of kamas and alot of time i believe the cha cra has the ability to be the BEST cra build. thats right i said it. "Cras do not have summons"? Somewhere near the top it says that, but with the level 200 Feca spell, do you think it's reasonable to assume that they might get to summon a Cra dopple at level 200? Also, as well as potentially being inaccurate, it's kinda redundant as someone could just look at the current list of class spells and see. 88.107.85.196 09:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC) :meee, im not sure on what are you referring on the rest of your paragraph's but every single class have a summon spell that its acquire at lvl 200 --Cizagna (Talk) 16:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Weapon damage bonus Why on EARTH is that section there worded like it is? There are no class bonuses anymore they are class penalties. The table listing the "bonus" like it does is totally misleading to a newb and I've already seen questions on the official forums asking why they are not getting +100% with their main class weapon because of this exact table in Kaolys post in the logbook. Then to top it off the statement under the table "Generally, due to the large damage bonus, Cra who do not attack with Class Spells will attack with Bows, despite the inability to wear a Shield." just incorrectly reinforces this gross misconception. If the table should be here at all it needs to list the percentages as class penalties like they are listed on the damage page. i.e +0% bows, -5% daggers... --Shreloche 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC) :You're correct, but this wikia is what the wikians make of it. Feel free to change what you seem fit. Even if the figures have been updated (and I agree that it would be better to state them as they are on the Damage page), many parts of this page but also of the wiki are outdated... The latest release just gave us more than we can chew and it will take some time before we can have it all back up to date. --Lirielle 19:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC) ::I didn't know where to put this, but i think the comment about bows is invalid, since I very rarely see a Cra use a bow in close combat. Furthermore, it still states that "Due to the large damage bonus..." which is also incorrect, because there is no longer a bonus. I was going to remove this comment, but thought it best to say so here. QuestionSleep 00:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC) :::I have gone ahead and changed this. If anyone has any problems with what I have written, they are welcome to change it back. Or if they have a better way of wording it. QuestionSleep 04:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC) Dinky XP From level 18 or above, I'd recommend nuking some Dinks on the Atrub Rocky Inlet (around 11,-24 area, but choose a location with more open beach). With only 3 MP, you can easily keep out of their way and magic arrows were just made for harpooning Dinks! Should one catch you, they barely scratch you. With XP of 10k+ per average Dink genocide, it's a super fast way to level up ;) 00:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC) :The fastest way to level an Intel/Cra in the early levels is to fight in Incarname until level 11, putting all spell points into burning arrow. Then at 11 go to Astrub Rocky Inlet, and level to 30+. ::Mushd Corner is good xp too and when you are little higher, you should try Porco Territory. And please, remember to sign your messages by using button. EisttekcirCZ 14:46, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Old Cra Dopple Information This is not an individual thing, create a history page and store info properly. -- :see example Spell loss potion/All -- ::Be it for me, Spell_loss_potion/All would have disappeared long ago. Galrauch wanted to delete old xelor dopple info and I suggested to move it to the Talk page for the corresponding dopple. More than enough for me. I guess this is some start of a consensus. --Lirielle 00:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC) :The only consensus i see so far its the removal of history information, in terms of actual information i do agree its useless to have it there, but it should be handle better, as i have said many times documenting properly is essential so one can keep up track more easily but galrauch just removes the table, there was no comment on summary why the info was removed (neither Lirielle's), now the info has been put on talk pages of dopple monsters where where if Lirielle had patience and discuss first here instead of just adding as my re-addition of table was a manual-revert i would have say "maybe on temple pages as the table its a list in order to access the doples in the temple for aligned and non-aligned characters, now talk pages are treated different from article pages and edited mercilessly, they for example dont show on "random page", there is no info on the summary on the talk page they where added, only Cra and Xelor Dopple have they where moved, why? not clear they just state (pre 1.27) talk pages of Eniripsa and Pandawa Dopple have no table, yet in the class pages the info has already been remove. Another reason to archive as requested is because its part of the "games evolution" for example spell loss potions, where originally craft by Alchemist, and then sold by NPC and then you could reset by means of a hard quest in Otomi and now can be done my fighting dopples and gathering their coins. For us the users that have been playing and are living the changes its much useless for some one that just started playing or someone that restarted to play and has see so many changes that info is valuable -- Cra Tribes? Along with Sadida, I see alot of Cras together in a group running around. Can anyone tell me why? :Bots. Little programs that run around, making kamas, which will be sold illegally. AdventuresOfASquirrelzz 07:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC) 100% resistent Is there any way to make a custom set give 100% resistent to a certain element for example i want to make a resistent to air cause of those pesky air cras i was wondering if you could have the el sac be 20% res to air i want to know what i can do about the other 80% any awnsers :'fraid not. Resistance (for players) is capped at 50%, so even if you could scrape enough gear to total 100% Air resistance you'd still only have 50% in fights. Galrauch (talk) 18:13, October 27, 2010 (UTC)